The below transcript is from an August 2011 interview with Nicole Johnson Reece, D&I Consultant and Former CDO at Aramark.  Interviewees for the series Diversity and Inclusion: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow were asked for their personal opinions and not those reflective of their current or past employer.  The views expressed are not necessarily those of any employer or this website.

Quick Question Links:
Personal History – CDO Role – D&I Origins – D&I Business Reason – Manager Conversation – Learning Tools – Workforce Application – Dimensions of Difference – Redo? – No Need for CDO Role – Most Advanced Country – Future Prediction

Dagoba Group: Give us a brief overview of your history within the D&I space.

I have been involved with D&I for, I say, about fifteen years. Actually started in multi-cultural marketing with AT&T and Verizon. My introduction was differences, cultural competencies and even differences within cultural groups such as within the Hispanic groups within the Asian groups. I had an understanding of how to fully maximize and leverage the potential of each of those markets. The need to meet and adjust the message and approach based on the needs of the particular group. Then I segued into the more traditional view of D&I with Cendant corporation, but more on the business development on the marketing side. Helped to grow their franchisee base and external partnerships. Then I transitioned into the HR side. I have had a pretty comprehensive holistic background.

Dagoba Group:  Not to give away anybody’s age, but what decade did you first start in the D&I field?
Oh gosh, I started in the late 90s when my daughter was born.

Dagoba Group: As a diversity officer, what are the overall responsibilities do you believe should be for a CDO?

Diversity officers are primarily change agents. There is very little, even for organizations that are very mature in their diversity practice, status quo maintaining. There are the affinity groups they are maintaining, but even those they are trying to evolve and move to the next level or come up with the next innovative idea. So we are constantly dealing with managing change. We are dealing with organizational development because we are looking at how to best position the organization to fully maximize emerging markets. We are always looking at how we can influence because very little of what we are changing do we necessarily own within the organization. We are not the heads of talent acquisitions, but we are collaborating with that person. We are not the heads of training and development, but we have to collaborate with that group. We are not the chief marketing officer, be we collaborate with that department. It is quite a bit of collaboration that goes with the role. It is our responsibility to look at where the organization has not fully penetrated the marketplace. That could be a consumer market. That could be a potential employee market space. To help them understand how to appropriately approach that market.

Dagoba Group: You have a unique marketing and business development focus. Often we hear CDOs are either primarily or wholly focused on workforce issues. It sounds like you have it as part of your tool set, but you are looking at how to grow the business in this role.

Right, that market space could be potential employees. How do we leverage that market? What do we need to do differently to adjust how we have done things before? It could be employees in place. How do we make them better? Are we getting the most out of them? What do we need to do differently to get the most out of them? So the approach when you look at it from a marketing perspective is the same as when you looking at the target set whether it is the consumer or the employee. It is a similar approach; understanding their specific needs and fully leverage.

Dagoba Group: You mentioned collaborating with a number of function heads. Who do you believe the CDO should report to in order to be the most effective?

It depends on where the business is in their maturity with this process. Ideally everyone will say the CEO, but sometimes that is difficult if the company is not at the level of maturity where they get it at that level or are ready to buy in at that level. So it depends for me where the company is at the level of maturity. You might have to start in HR just to get a company off the ground and get them to start to understand, have the dialogue, have the programs in place so that you can begin to evolve that into other areas. That may be where you need to start. I have rarely seen companies, especially those who are new or starting in these cultural areas, immediately place this role under a COO or CEO because they haven’t yet gotten it. They do not yet understand the impact on the business as a whole versus seeing it just as talent management.

Dagoba Group: If you were going to pick one industry you felt you had the highest amount of expertise in the D&I, which one would it be?

Oh gosh, I don’t think that I can because I have spent equal amount of time in different industries.

Dagoba Group: Often we hear corporate diversity initiatives originated in response to legal compliance. You spoke about going back to the 80’s with your D&I experience. Do you believe this is true for your industry?

I will do it from my most recent experience, food service and hospitality. It is a tough question because it depends on where companies are in their maturity level. There are some organizations that started having this discussion back in the 60s and 70s so then it was more from an area of compliance, but they have evolved to a different place. There are some companies who are starting now, so they are less from affirmative action compliance. The level of discussion is at a higher level. I don’t know if that is industry wide. I am curious to hear how others have answered it because I have seen companies differ within the same industry. I can say this for financial services and consumer products, it varies depending on where the company is stepping into the process. Some have done it because of law suits. Some have done it because they have seen the law suits and they didn’t want to be there so there were more proactive. It really does vary. I don’t know if there is an industry answer in any industry.

Dagoba Group: If it was not a legal compliance, it was a business reason. When do you believe D&I became more of a business reason in the corporate world?

I would say mid 90s started to predict the 2000 census. Everyone can say the 2000 census was going to demonstrate a significant cultural shift in the US. Companies have to be prepared for that cultural shift because it is going impact who they are hiring, who is going to be in charge, who the decision makers are, who is buying your products/services, what kind of products/services they are going to want. So we all had these great predictions of what the 2000 census was going to be. So once 2000 hit not only did it prove those predictions, but in some of the markets it exceeded those predictions. Companies started to realize, “uh oh we got to shift who we market to” which means we got to shift what we are marketing to them, how we do it, what kind of products/services we bring to them because it is a different consumer segment than in the past. The same goes for who you got in the pool of individuals to select from. It is a lot different than 20 or 30 years ago. So you can’t use the same thing. And the environment we are operating in with the internet and changing technology is also moving forward. So the ways things worked for you in the past will not be as effective any more. I would say mid 90s and then when the 2000 census hit, the data was there. The smart companies started to take the necessary adjustments. Some sat in the background to wait and see. They were still disbelieving. They were still resistant. They still wanted to maintain their status quo. The next round of census was a huge wake up call for many organizations. Green speaks. If they were B2B, their clients were asking. If they were B2C, their consumers were sending them very strong messages.

Dagoba Group: Do you believe there is still a lot of work to be done on developing the business case behind D&I?

I don’t know if it is developing the business case or really starting to see the impact of the programs they put in place. So the issue is if the company or the leaders of the organization don’t want to hear it, then they will be left in the dark ages while their competitors move forward. There is not much more work to be done with the business case because all you have to do is look around. I have been amazed by the number of organizations that put these functions in place; non-profits, government agencies, utility companies and etcetera. Those positions didn’t exist when I started in diversity. You could barely find a manager level job. Now I look around and suddenly I amazed at the number of organizations and types of organizations that have diversity officers.

Dagoba Group: Last time I look at a stat is was still only 20% of F1000 that had a CDO role.

And that is the CDO level which was probably 1% a few years ago. I am also talking about director level, manager level, even someone who has a talent acquisition diversity title. Companies recognize we have to do something. It may not be ideal. It may not be at an officer level position, but we need to get in the game. And that didn’t exist before. There has definitely been some progress. Believe you will start to see these roles elevated in the organization.

Dagoba Group: We have been speaking about the C suite and executive level of the organization. When you are looking at the line manager level what conversation have you found to be most engaging?

It depends on the type of industry you are in. At any level everybody wants to know how this affects them as individuals. At a more senior level they are looking at how it affects their P&L. At a mid-management or entry level they are interested in how does this affect my day to day experience better. Am I going to be able to walk in and feel like my manager will be able to deal with me effectively? Am I going to be assessed appropriately? Am I going to be treated fairly? Are they going to be able to understand my unique needs? Am I going to be valued because I am different or am I going to be pigeonholed? Can I fit in? At those levels people want to know it is going to make a difference for them.

Dagoba Group: You mentioned the internet which leads us to the next section. What tools have you found to work the best for educating the corporate world in D&I? Are they still effective today? What do you believe will be the best method for tomorrow?

When you talk about diversity and inclusion to me it is one of the most complex areas because you got issues you have to address. One side is you have to look at your policies, your practices and how you are holding people formally accountable for the objectives that you set. It is like any other part of the business. There are going to be measurements, not necessarily metrics, but there will be some measurements set in place that will either reward success or penalize failure. So people are held formally accountable for meeting those goals.

The other side which makes diversity slightly more complicated is you are dealing with the human element. So you can tell business leaders you have to do X, Y or Z. Then you are also telling people they have to behave or believe differently than they have been accustomed to for a good portion of their life. That is where the challenge comes in. In leadership development they understand the complexity of that piece. I have seen a number of presentations by neurologists, psychologists, and social anthropologists about human behavior and the challenge of changing human behavior. And the one consistent theme I have heard as success is exposure. People, once they are exposed to a different culture or lifestyle on a regular basis, have their assumptions and biases challenged and they get an opportunity to see what they thought may have been is not true. And it gives them a greater level of comfort. A couple of things I have done is to utilize our external partnerships with some of the national organizations like Out and Equal, National Council of La Raza or Asian American professional or Urban League and require that our executive team, our management team, or our leadership attend those events. There is a difference between putting people a room for a half day or two days and having a conversation about something versus putting them in an environment for two or three days where they can experience that culture, the other companies within their industry or outside their industry, and hear the success stories. It is an experiential exposure that I have found 100% of the time has the greatest impact on opening people.

Dagoba Group: How do affinity groups play in that exposure piece?

Affinity groups are powerful mini worlds of getting information on those emerging markets that you would otherwise have to go to some large research firm to get. They play a number of roles. They allow you to get information about those emerging markets. They give humans the opportunity to interact with other people they are comfortable with. Let’s not deny the power of comfort. They give you insight into the particular needs of that group. And that is not just ethnic. It could be young executives. It could be single parents. These are individuals who are bringing themselves to your work space every day and you want them to feel valued and respected and they can contribute. You need to understand how to do that. Affinity groups provide that comfort level for those individuals as well as serve as a valuable source of information on how to appropriately approach and leverage those groups. There are many many stories on how companies have used them to create products, to get referrals for candidates and new employees. So they play a number of valuable roles.

Dagoba Group: If we focus now just on workforce (whether that is recruiting, promotions, raises, team development, retention or any other number of areas) which conversation do you believe is the most advanced? Which has the greatest need?

Oh gosh, I think companies have probably done the best at recruiting overall because it is easier measured than leadership development and training. You can actually count bodies versus things like training and leadership development which don’t have a tangible quantifiable return.

Dagoba Group: Are they seeking something they can actually show progress in a chart?

We went to this event or visited this website and they can see numbers. Unfortunately it goes back to the EEO affirmative action. It really doesn’t get into the inclusion side of the business, but it is the place where leaders need to see numbers. Where they can touch and feel and see it in print so they will tend to focus more on that. Unfortunately, they miss the other pieces which is onboarding and making sure the culture is ready to bring in all of these individuals; retaining them and moving them up the pipeline. So there is a process to continually track companies that have done a good job of creating good recruiting strategies.

Dagoba Group: If you were to look at the dimensions of differences in our workspace (e.g. gender, cultural, religious, age, ableness, sexual orientation, ethnicity and so on), what do you see as the most wide spread or popular area of development today? Let’s focus on the food service industry which you were most recently employed. Where do you see it moving in the future?

Oh gosh, well probably because companies have focused on gender and ethnicity for so long, they are relatively well penetrated. The generational piece clearly is huge right now. And not just in the US. Globally many countries are dealing with aging populations. Even the four generations in the workplace here in the US. That has been a focus more recently. And then probably next is ableness and sexual orientation. Those are areas that have been so much overlooked since companies have focused on gender and ethnicity.

Dagoba Group: Do you think it is because those areas in which you need to self identify like ableness, sexual orientation or religion that make them more difficult to penetrate?

Yes and they are more difficult to track. Remember companies are still in some degree evolving out of the affirmative action EEO mindset so they still want to track it. So they have not been able to.

Dagoba Group: Now for more of a fun question. If you were able to turn the clock back and redo a particular engagement on D&I (either one you have given or experienced), what would it be and why? How would you do it differently?

Ah wow. As I have moved through different roles and matured in my own capability in this area I look back and say, “God I wish I would have done X here.” I have been thinking about the biggest learnings I have had in the past two roles I have been in. I have actually been mentally working on a list of not diversity “do’s”, but diversity “don’ts.” There are two that always stand out for me. One is that whole executive engagement CEO piece. Always hear people say the CEO has to be involved. It is that person, but it is also other senior leaders, key stakeholders. It is not just the CEO. Getting him or her involved is the ultimate conversation. The process I have seen a lot of peers overlook is the importance of step one sitting down and having a conversation with senior leadership team with the key stakeholders with the CEO or the senior most president within your division and making sure they are onboard. I think they try to put together great strategies, but completely overlook that relationship building, the educational discussions. Getting them engaged. Getting them onboard. And generally that is where people feel frustrated and I have been there myself.

And think the second one is creating strategy that has the specific measurements of success on them. And I am not saying it has to be metrics. Not everything has to be put in a number. Putting that strategy together and knowing upfront and having all of those stakeholders agree to what will success look like. Make sure we are all in agreement with this. It makes sure everyone is aligned so that when you finish that training, got that affinity group up or got that marketing campaign going you are not going to come back and say it failed if it hit those goals.

Dagoba Group: We heard people say it is the role of a D&I officer to work his/her self out of a job by creating an inclusive workplace which will no longer need the D&I focus. How do you respond to this statement?

It is preposterous. You don’t hear people say the CFO is going to work himself out of a job by getting the numbers right or the marketing officer is going to be gone after the marketing campaign is completed. It is an evolving role much like everything else. So if you don’t have an individual there that is specifically focused on leading that functional area who is the key owner, who is the key contact for D&I on the strategy? What you will see is the evolution on how this role gets more adopted in the various areas of the business. The talent management team is onboard. The recruiting team has elements of their strategy that incorporate diversity. The marketing team and etcetera. Organizations are not there yet. The generational piece was not a conversation ten years ago, but it is now. So this is a new piece where you need a key leader on how to incorporate that into the strategy. The global piece was not as big of a conversation. It was mostly US based 15-20 years ago. Now you see more diversity officers that are global diversity officers where they used to only have a North American leader. So the role continues to evolve. The environment evolves. And it is a change management process that takes years to put in place. Even some mature organizations like Sodexho or McDonalds or a J&J will tell you there is still a lot of work to be done. If one person doesn’t own it, it doesn’t get done.

Dagoba Group: If you look at specific countries to try to determine which one might be more advanced in the corporate D&I conversation, which country do you believe is the most advanced? Why?

It is a tough question. I have not done as much work globally as some of my peers have. I don’t know if I have sufficient amount of experience to give you a strong answer. In the work that I have done, especially in my last role, I would say the UK because they have some of the similar cultural mixes as the US. Versus other countries which tend to be more homogeneous. So I have seen them have diversity strategies for people coming from different countries, cultures and languages and how to deal with that. Gender issues. Disability. From my perspective and experience I would say the UK.

Dagoba Group: For this last question I am asking you to take out your crystal ball. Ten years from now, where do you believe we will be corporately for D&I? Where would you like us to be?

I think you will see that 20% number be 50%. More CDOs. More organizations will have diversity at higher levels. So there will be more penetration of different functions in corporate America. I think that will be the largest because what that also gives you is a variety of organizations at different stages of maturity of what they have implemented. So it is hard to say programmatically where companies will be. Again you have companies like AT&T that have been doing for 20 years already or McDonalds that started in the 60s and will likely be more global. But you will have companies that are just starting, or started five years before, are doing the basic stuff other companies have done 10-15 years before them.

I just think you will continue to see deeper penetration and buy in of these roles in corporate America.

Dagoba Group: If you were going to pick a B2B or a B2C that is going to be the leader in the D&I conversation, which one would you predict will be the leader?

Definitely B2C companies because the consumer landscape is so powerful. There is no way companies can ignore that change. They can ignore, but they will see the financial impact of ignoring it. They will regret their own demise.

Dagoba Group: This has been a great conversation. With all of your experience in a number of different industries as well as somebody who started from scratch in a couple of companies, the information will be valuable to our readers. Thank you.